Men with Guns - Are Police Well Trained?:

I'm going to repeat myself here ...(well it IS my blog eh 😊)

"- 1,400 years ago.. Imam Ali (599-661 CE) said "Knowledge is Power" - and Mao Zedong said in 1927 "Power Grows out of the barrel of a gun.".

  - If that is right .. smart people won't choose to  be ignorant, unarmed and powerless eh."

- However the GUN BANNERS are exempt from that limitation and may embrace those characteristics - while trusting to armed law enforcement to keep them safe (after the event).

________________

.. Here are some stories from 'a land far away':

- "On arriving at the empty pistol club range I noticed a wooden container at the firing line containing six police revolvers - I phoned the police station from home."

"When the steward observed that the VIP Protection Police Officer was armed - he challenged the legality of this on a international passenger aircraft.. "Oh it's all right - it's unloaded see" drawing the Glock to demonstrate, pulled the trigger and fired a round through the aircraft's floor."

"- I was quietly practicing 'Olympic style' at 25m when two fully loaded police cars swung into the club range - calling stag roar MOOOOAAHs over their p.a. speaker systems."

"The Anti-Terrorist squad completed their late night exercise at Harewood Airport and debriefed in the departure lounge . Officer X removed the magazine from his rifle and fired the chambered high-velocity round into the carpet."

"Firearms Officer in Police Armoury .."Have you seen our new sniper rifles?" - pointing to a rack of scoped long-arms with magazines inserted .. I removed one loaded magazine and raised my eyebrows questioningly "Oh they have to be ready for instant use."

It being an International Requirement that Airport Police be armed at all times - the Senior Police administrator held that this was against his Christian beliefs. - He first required that the revolvers be disguised & strapped into square leather 'lunch boxes' - but then later permitted ankle holsters. - As Officer Y walked across the departure lounge a young boy ran after him calling "Mister .. is this yours?".

Chief Inspector "T****J " to Armorer quote - "NO WAY is my Police Force going to use plastic guns - we will NOT test them - Lock that sample gun in that cabinet until the trials are over".

- The TV1 crew was interviewing live a decades-long-service Armed Offender Squad Expert Sergeant beside his police car on his retirement day. When they asked about his gun - on camera - he opened the car's back door - reached in grasping the rifle by the muzzle and dragged it from the back seat straight towards himself.

"The Armed Offender's Squad carrying loaded H&K sub-machine guns unlawfully boarded the flight to Dunedin with the Minister of Police - who ordered the crew to take off."

The Endorsed Pistol Club shooter / Collector was held handcuffed face-down on his wet concrete drive while AOS searched his home (following a marriage break-up). After around half an hour their leader came out and asked "Where-the-f*** are your guns?" ... "F****ng locked in the safe where they have to be"...

Marty K.

Armed BANK Security In New Zealand:

Before you were born - and until the late 1970s - some civilians here in New Zealand were still allowed .. and some were actually required .. to be ARMED.

Logically they were also permitted to use their issued weapons in 'self defense' and in the line of duty to protect property in the BANKS and other public areas where they worked.

A superb leather worker I dealt with (when I was the NZ Glock Factory Agent) for holsters, mag. pouches and gun-belts showed me his 'Carry Permit' issued when he worked as a Security Guard here.

- I've been sharing memories on this with Rod:

"When I was a teenager I used to go hunting with Bxxx Bxxxxxx (a prominent author of NZ hunting/deer books) when he worked for the Bank of NZ at Tuatapere in Southland.  He told me that the day he started with the bank as an 18 year old cadet in Invercargill, his first job entailed being handed a .455 Webley Mk VI revolver and told to walk behind a senior teller who was carrying cash in a briefcase to another bank.

  He caused a bit of a stir in the main street of Invercargill by carrying the revolver in his hand, no-one having bothered to tell him to conceal it!

Webley Mk.VI - Break Action .455" Caliber. 

"- On another occasion, the BNZ sent me a .38 Mk III Webley for its annual service when I had my business in Rangiora.  It was delivered by courier, fully loaded, in a small cardboard box secured with a single strip of Sellotape."

Webley Mk.III .38" Revolver.

"Quite frankly, the average bank teller would have been a serious liability with a pistol in their hands.  They had little or no training and were generally of a timid disposition, hence highly unpredictable in a stressful situation."

- Why is it that our NZ Law Enforcement "authorities" seem to continuously undervalue proper firearms safety training & practice  .. while insisting on having weapons available to only them? - Currently issued with Glock 17 9mm pistols and 'Bushmaster' rifles - our NZ Police often appear to be clumsy and unfamiliar with their tools. Maybe their bosses think that the sworn police personnel are of such character & ability that they don't need ongoing training & practice.

- This is even more strange - bearing in mind that it is a NZ Police requirement that civilian endorsed target pistol shooters must practice-shoot a minimum of 12 times a year on range to maintain their sporting permits.

 .. "All the banks and security firms were disarmed in about 1976.  I am not aware of any firearms issued to bank staff at all these days.  All of the armed cash escort work (big shipments only) is now done by plain clothes Police.

Prior to the general disarming, bank tellers had revolvers at the counters (usually Mk III .38 Webley pocket revolvers, although other models were also used including .455 Webley Mk VI).  Armoured Freightways provided the armed cash escort facilities and they were armed with .32 Browning M1910 pistols." 

FN Browning M1910.

 "I used to train the Canterbury Armoured Freightways staff in pistol shooting at McLeans Island (Christchurch Pistol Club Range) every couple of months and I provided reloaded practice ammo for them using ..308 100 grain Speer Plinkers. 

 Their good factory ammo was saved for carry use.  I also serviced the bank revolvers on an annual basis.  Bank staff were meant to have a training shoot once per year but it seldom happened.  Small inter-bank cash transfers were carried out by bank staff with one of them at least being armed."

I think that the present day "Armoured Freightways" is now called 'SECURITY EXPRESS'  .. and I'm told that armed security is provided by plain cloths Police escort .. I presume on a user pays basis.

'Private Security Personel" (unarmed) are required here to be NZQA Trained & licensed by our Ministry of Justice (PSPLA Section). (NZQA Standards 27360, 27361, 27364)

I have seen NZ Police H&K sub-machine guns and sniper rifles in their armoury - and have also noted their press release of buying H&K MZP1 37/40MM GRENADE LAUNCHERS for use in riot control - but I doubt they train much with these as each SAFARILAND XM1006 sponge-round will cost around US$50.

Note: In the 1990 Aramoana Massacre (19 November) The Police AOS (firearms specialists) ended that sorry business by firing more than 60 rounds from their sub-machine guns when David Gray ran out crying "Kill me you bastards" .....  hitting him five times.

 Multiple Medals and Commendations were awarded.

____________________________

I have a couple of interesting books from the 1960s written by G G Kelley who was an Arms and Ballistic Officer of the New Zealand Police Department .. 'The Gun In The Case' and 'Gun In The Hills' - from the earliest days firearms training here was very "patchy" - one early exception was Major Von Tempsky (killed in action 1868) who ensured that his 'Forest Rangers' were equipped with the best available arms - Calisher & Terry carbines, Revolvers, & especially made Bowie knives ... BUT he particularly ensured that they trained hard and practiced combat with their gear.

Marty K.

UK - Second Couple Nerve Gased. - & Govt. Nukes:

For those of you wondering about where a second couple - these folk from Aymesbury Charles Rowley and Dawn Sturgess - were recently hospitalized by a nerve agent NOVICHOK ..(invented & developed at Porton Down) .. here is a map showing the spatial relationship.

- Go to the right of Stonehenge for AYMESBURY - then around halfway down for PORTON DOWN and down again for SALISBURY where the first attack happened. - It's all inside of a fifteen minute drive.

The 'scientists' (chemical weapons developers) at Porton Down were unable to prove any connection between the nerve agent that endangered the Scripals lives and Russia.

"As the country's chief medical officer, I want to reassure the public that the risk to the general public remains low," England's chief medical officer Sally Davies told reporters.

A lovely historic area to visit - just don't eat any beef (BSE), or breath the air (Nerve agents, pollution) or drink the water (re-cycled sewage). - Stick to cold beer, cider and pork pies. Wear gloves.

Marty K.

-just out of interest:

Ahh No - they've left New Zealand off the map again ..

Link: http://www.peaceeducationscotland.org/resources/

Mosin-Nagant Rifles:

I came across reference to the J Stevens Arms Company and The New England Westinghouse Group - when I was thinking about the 'invention' & development of that SUPERB all round cartridge .. the .22" LONG RIFLE RIM-FIRE.

I then learned that the NEW ENGLAND WESTINGHOUSE (1.8 MILLION Rifles) and REMINGTON ARMS (1.5 MILLION Rifles) - were both contracted by the Imperial Russian Government to make Mosin-Nagant M1891 Rifles. (7.62x54mmR)

I didn't know that these had been made - to a small extent - in USA.

- Did you know that numbers of these rifles had been made in America? - I have seen them offered for sale quiet cheaply here but always dismissed them as being old Russian "clunkers - who needs them?" - well I have to say that there's a lot of it about eh ... ignorance that is - my ignorance here.

One Each from either US Maker Mosin-Nagant 'Three Line" Rifles.

It's History now - but the two Russian Revolutions of February and then October 1917 meant that these orders for American made Imperial Mosin-Nagants expired and no money got paid from the freshly organised 'soviets'.  - Both Remington & Westinghouse had to be bailed-out from financial collapse by the US Government - by them buying all those rifles the manufacturers were stuck with.

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The Mosin-Nagant '3 Line' M 1891 Rifle  Five rounds of 7.62x54mmR (Finnish rifles were in 7.62x53mmR) has the second longest production history of any rifle - more than 37 MILLION of them being made. (It seems that the British "Brown Bess" Musket was made for more years.)

If you add that Mosin-Nagant record of production longevity to the biggest quantity ever made record of Kalashnikov (AK-47 Types) of roughly 100 MILLION - the Russians might justifiably claim to have the biggest success in rifle design and production.

More than 64 nations - including USA, Great Britain, & Israel have used these Mosin-Nagants which share some design features with Mauser, Lee-Enfields, Mannlicher, Carcanos, & the Gewehr 88.

"3 Line" refers to .30" caliber (1 "line" = ¹⁄₁₀ in or 2.54 mm, - thus 3 lines = 7.62 mm). - this is based on the old Russian system of measurement .. standardized by Peter-The-Great.

 The Russian "cubit" was a standard distance from the elbow to the finger tip and called the 'ARSHIN' - it was something like our old 'yard' but measured around 2 foot four inches. - The Russian 'inch' was called a 'dyuim'. - a tenth of an inch was a 'liniya' (line). - and a 100th of an inch was a 'tochka' (point). - That's all fairly logical and straightforward .. before they went metric in 1925 eh.

.. At least the communists went Metric quiet early - SOME archaic countries STILL haven't modernized eh.

- These "old clunkers!" have made very successful sniper rifles and to this day are still widely used around the world.

Sporterized Mosin-Nagant Rifle.

If you'd like to have your eyes opened to the Mosin-Nagants - Wikipedia would be a great start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosin%E2%80%93Nagant

The Finnish 7.62x 53mmR is interchangeable with the 'standard' 7.62x54mmR having very minor differences.

Marty K.

Rod says:

Hi Marty

The very first Mosin Nagant rifles were made by SIG in Switzerland to extremely high standards.  I owned one for a while but never shot it before I sold it.  SIG only made them until the Russians began their own production.  The US production was to help the Russians prepare for WW1 when their own factories couldn’t produce rifles fast enough.

Cheers

Rod

Industrial 8 Gauge Shotguns:

I know that I've said this before .. but you really can learn something new every day eh ..

- 1,400 years ago.. Imam Ali (599-661 CE) is noted as saying "Knowledge is Power" - and Mao Zedong said in 1927 "Power Grows out of the barrel of a gun.".
  - If that's right .. smart people won't choose to be ignorant, unarmed or powerless eh.😁

______________

Thanks to TFB for introducing me to big 8 Gauge (Bore) 'Kiln Guns' .. (An 8 bore is a .835 inch (21.2 mm) caliber). Link:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/06/22/winchester-8-gauge-industrial-shotguns/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheFirearmBlog+%28The+Firearm+Blog%29

- If you go to their website,  'Winchester Industrial Shotguns' - you will be informed like me about how these 8 Gauge 'Ringblaster' and "Western" industrial tools - & there are Remington 'Masterblaster' guns available too .. are used for breaking-up slag build-up inside furnaces, cement & lime kilns, - boilers, incinerators and silos etc.

These Are NOT Classed As Weapons .. They Are Industrial Tools.

 - Here's some colorful video taken shooting on-the-job inside a live furnace: Link:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/06/22/winchester-8-gauge-industrial-shotguns/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheFirearmBlog+%28The+Firearm+Blog%29

- That's a very hostile environment in there - and the "distance" clearing of such build-ups without needing to shut-down the process must save a heap of costs.

Single Shot Kiln-Gun.

8 Gauge Winchester Industrial Cartridges

Here's a Remington Industrial 8 Gauge being fired on a shooting range:

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/ever-see-an-8-gauge-industrial-gun-shoot-a-3-ounce-slug/

Remington Industrial Kiln Gun.

 Muffled / Silenced - Not For Social Use.

I read that these tools are not sold but are supplied on contract in return for exclusive sales of a selection of zinc & lead buck and slug industrial cartridges.

Seven Shotguns Loaded For Industrial Action.

South African Image From Industrial Cartridge Pty.

 Do crematoriums get slag build-up? .. probably not. (In 1885, the first official cremation in the UK took place in Woking. - The deceased was Mrs Jeannette C. Pickersgill ). - Later in 1963, Pope Paul VI lifted the catholic ban on cremation.

A human body (cadaver) usually contains a negative caloric value, meaning that energy is required to combust it. This is a result of the high water content - all water must be vaporized which requires a very large amount of thermal energy.

A 136 kg (300 lbs) body which contains 65% water will require 200 MJ of thermal energy before any combustion will take place. The time to carry out a cremation can vary from 70 minutes to 210 minutes.

- There has been interest - mainly in developing nations - to build a crematory heated by concentrated solar energy .. that might be a fun way to go eh.

Marty K.

Rod says:

Hi Marty

For many years I serviced the 8ga kiln gun at the Westport cement works.  It was a Winchester-Western single shot (the third one pictured in your blog) and I had to go there once a year and give it a full strip and clean, replace worn parts, etc and test fire it.  The action was an oversize version of the Martini system.  Prior to getting the proper kiln gun they used a 9.3mm mauser sporting rifle.  The works had three rotating kilns about 60 metres long and the clinker build-up would set like concrete.  The big solid lead 8ga slugs often took several shots to break up the big lumps.

Cheers

Jacob Shaw UnderHammer, Part 2 - Bottom Chamber, Revolver:

Last night here in The Hurunui it was properly "a braw bricht moonlicht nicht" .. and it FROZE.
- there definitely were no brass monkeys around this morning 😙

- Because of ongoing interest in my first post about the Jacob Shaw Under Hammer ..

https://flicense.blogspot.com/2016/01/jacob-shaw-underhammer-percussion.html

.. about this wee gun - I've tried to take a second look - but I can't find any useful news .. these bottom chamber firing guns are going to remain obscure unless someone out there can find another specimen to examine:

Rock Island Auctions records having sold an engraved model of this innovative cap-n-ball revolver for $8,625 on 8th December 2007 (Lot No. 3198). Sadly there are no images posted on the web site.

Link:  https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/42/3198/jacob-shaw-underhammer

However, their lot description is detailed and informative .. if only Ian McCollom had managed to produce one of his superb video reviews!

Here's a Link to a (Russian?) 'Pistols History' site recently found:

http://historypistols.ru/blog/kapsyulnye-pistolety-i-revolvery/kapsyulnyj-revolver-underhammer-jacob-shaw/

Image From Patent No. 17698 Dated 30 June 1857.

These compact percussion revolvers seem to have been "before their time"  & and their many advanced features may have been the cause of them failing to sell - folk tend to stick with the familiar. - Maybe a lack of "Marketing" or perhaps the guns had other failings .. I guess that the cylinder indexing mechanism being exposed to the combustion gasses will have made cleaning a regular chore?

- Sorry but all the images I have found appear to be from one only gun.

Marty K.

Very GREAT Again - Even The Supreme Court:

Donnie 'Superlative' Trump wants to make America GREAT again, as do the UK's Brexiteers - promising to make Britain GREAT again.

 - I think both are hugely deluded morons - and that the old 'Albion' - where giants once dwelt within the white cliffs of Dover - is a much better name for those horribly overcrowded islands that are nearly the 52nd State:

They are all welcome to such GREATNESS.


The GREAT SMOG of London , early December (5th - 9th) 1952 killed some 12,000 people. I REMEMBER IT .. at times you couldn't see your raised hand or your feet when looking down.

THE GREAT WAR needs little introduction with some 16 MILLION Deaths 1914-1918.

In 1851 London held THE GREAT EXHIBITION in Hyde Park - Conservative aristocrats of that era were in panic that the visiting crowds would form a Revolutionary Mob.

In July & August 1858 we had THE GREAT STINK when London's main sewer - the River Thames caused three outbreaks of cholera and eventually lead to Parliament doing something about the crap that was making their lives so unpleasant in Westminster's riverside Houses of Parliament.

Some time earlier (1st May 1707) The Kingdom of GREAT BRITAIN became a sovereign European State - Well they couldn't call those islands "The United Kingdom" because there were so many uprisings & attempted revolts there.

The use of the word "GREAT" with "Britain" actually originates in the French language, which uses Bretagne for both Britain and Brittany. - French therefore distinguishes between the two by calling Britain la Grande Bretagne.

"Let's Take England Out Of Europe." !!

THE GREAT DANE was so called in England because breeders feared that anti-German feelings would prejudice dog owners against Deutsche Dogge or 'German Mastiffe'. They're known as "gentle giants".

THE GREATEST GUN might be Adolf Hitler's GUSTAV GUN - when he specified "a gun able to pierce a meter of steel, seven meters of concrete, or thirty meters of dense earth." - Krupp quickly complied, presenting Hitler with the Gustav Gun—named in honor of family patriarch Gustav Krupp von Bohlen und Halbach.

 The biggest gun ever built, it weighed a crushing 1344 tons, including its railway carriage. With its breech block, the entire machine stood 4 stories tall, 20 ft. wide and 140 ft. long. Moving, positioning, loading and maintaining this monster required a 500-man crew commanded by a major general.

The Gustav's 800mm bore accepted either of two giant projectiles: a 10,584-pound high-explosive shell or a 16,540-pound concrete-piercing shell. Though it didn't deliver the range of the Paris Gun, the Gustav could strike targets up to 29 miles away.

THE GUSTAV GUN. (Schwerer Gustav)

- The last of THE GREAT AUKS was killed in the mid 1840s by collectors wanting specimens - before they were all gone - poor little seabirds.

The last British GREAT BUSTARD passed in 1832 - but just to finish on an 'UP' note - these birds are being re-introduced with RUSSIAN chicks.

- Great eh,

Marty K.